Comments on: Pitfalls to Installing Everything http://www.mjmwired.net/linux/2005/10/31/pitfalls-to-installing-everything/ making sense of mixed up software Thu, 22 May 2008 19:48:51 +0000 http://wordpress.org/?v=1.5.2 Comment on Pitfalls to Installing Everything by: Charlie http://www.mjmwired.net/linux/2005/10/31/pitfalls-to-installing-everything/#comment-569 Sat, 08 Dec 2007 10:48:40 +0000 http://www.mjmwired.net/linux/2005/10/31/pitfalls-to-installing-everything/#comment-569 I not totally sure, of any option, for one side it is true that installing everything can be and headache, because of dependencies, and the contrary is also true, because of the same reasons... The problem with linux, is that it has too many sources from too many different places, and that use different versions of the same libraries and other stuff, and that causes the dependency hell, that affects linux. Plus, that stuff don't work quite well together... Being, an developer I sometimes think, if it isn't easier to do an operating system, myself... Since, I don't care how I have to install something, but most of the times, I just didn't have time for it... And I like, to have my pc, filled with libraries, interpreters, http servers, ftp servers, ldap servers, mail servers and news servers, and a few ide's to program. But when I try to archive my goal, the system always ends up broken, it may be windows, linux, bsd, solaries (have also try it...), or another one, the result is the same. Which is why I'm an developer who don't likes to use the pc... :( I not totally sure, of any option, for one side it is true that installing everything can be and headache, because of dependencies, and the contrary is also true, because of the same reasons… The problem with linux, is that it has too many sources from too many different places, and that use different versions of the same libraries and other stuff, and that causes the dependency hell, that affects linux. Plus, that stuff don’t work quite well together… Being, an developer I sometimes think, if it isn’t easier to do an operating system, myself… Since, I don’t care how I have to install something, but most of the times, I just didn’t have time for it… And I like, to have my pc, filled with libraries, interpreters, http servers, ftp servers, ldap servers, mail servers and news servers, and a few ide’s to program. But when I try to archive my goal, the system always ends up broken, it may be windows, linux, bsd, solaries (have also try it…), or another one, the result is the same. Which is why I’m an developer who don’t likes to use the pc… :(

]]> Comment on Pitfalls to Installing Everything by: Mauriat http://www.mjmwired.net/linux/2005/10/31/pitfalls-to-installing-everything/#comment-486 Thu, 12 Oct 2006 13:08:08 +0000 http://www.mjmwired.net/linux/2005/10/31/pitfalls-to-installing-everything/#comment-486 Frank: "Given these points, it is still entirely up to the end user as to what software they should install and use." ... I would hope that the "scientists… engineers… and analysts that use linux" have a knowledgeable Linux admin who knows how to support them. For that admin, this should all be a NON-issue. Additionally, admins should look into kickstart. Although it is not clear from this, if you researched Fedora you would find that "Install Everything" is technically difficult to implement whem moving to a 'YUM' based installation system. Hence the option wasn't removed. It just does not exist with the new installer. PS. I really hope you don't use Fedora for production environments for science, engineering and whatnot. If you moved from Fedora, I would not blame you but it has more to do with implementing brand new software technologies and methods than it has to do with ideology or philosophy as you seem to imply. Frank: “Given these points, it is still entirely up to the end user as to what software they should install and use.” … I would hope that the “scientists… engineers… and analysts that use linux” have a knowledgeable Linux admin who knows how to support them. For that admin, this should all be a NON-issue. Additionally, admins should look into kickstart.

Although it is not clear from this, if you researched Fedora you would find that “Install Everything” is technically difficult to implement whem moving to a ‘YUM’ based installation system. Hence the option wasn’t removed. It just does not exist with the new installer.

PS. I really hope you don’t use Fedora for production environments for science, engineering and whatnot. If you moved from Fedora, I would not blame you but it has more to do with implementing brand new software technologies and methods than it has to do with ideology or philosophy as you seem to imply.

]]> Comment on Pitfalls to Installing Everything by: Frank G http://www.mjmwired.net/linux/2005/10/31/pitfalls-to-installing-everything/#comment-485 Wed, 11 Oct 2006 13:38:17 +0000 http://www.mjmwired.net/linux/2005/10/31/pitfalls-to-installing-everything/#comment-485 Guys... I have to disagree with the post. For example: We have a bunch of scientists... engineers... and analysts that use linux to compile, run, and analyze simulations. The simulations are very sensitive to changes in compiler, std libs, kernel, etc. so if they are in the middle of the analysis and need to run some octave plugin or some pdf utility or some new graphics driver to run their graphics or whatever... you try explaining to them that they need to sit there and install all of these dependencies to run their stuff. They don't want (and don't need) the hassle. They have work to do. They don't care to learn about dependencies or how to build something from source. They immedietly ask you "why didn't you just install everything? this thing has a 500 GB hard drive in it!"... and how would you like to say... "well mr. phd man that makes 4 times as much money than me... because I read online that you should learn how to use linux better so I wanted to force you to install stuff manually."... yeah right. and for those people voting to remove the "install everything" option altogether... you people are the reason people move away from redhat and move away from linux... it is not about what you want and how you think things should be done... changing defaults... moving buttons under an advanced menu... using a warning... all of these are valid things to do... but removing options????? give me a break! Guys… I have to disagree with the post. For example:

We have a bunch of scientists… engineers… and analysts that use linux to compile, run, and analyze simulations. The simulations are very sensitive to changes in compiler, std libs, kernel, etc. so if they are in the middle of the analysis and need to run some octave plugin or some pdf utility or some new graphics driver to run their graphics or whatever… you try explaining to them that they need to sit there and install all of these dependencies to run their stuff. They don’t want (and don’t need) the hassle. They have work to do. They don’t care to learn about dependencies or how to build something from source. They immedietly ask you “why didn’t you just install everything? this thing has a 500 GB hard drive in it!”… and how would you like to say… “well mr. phd man that makes 4 times as much money than me… because I read online that you should learn how to use linux better so I wanted to force you to install stuff manually.”…

yeah right.

and for those people voting to remove the “install everything” option altogether… you people are the reason people move away from redhat and move away from linux… it is not about what you want and how you think things should be done… changing defaults… moving buttons under an advanced menu… using a warning… all of these are valid things to do… but removing options????? give me a break!

]]> Comment on Pitfalls to Installing Everything by: A Comment http://www.mjmwired.net/linux/2005/10/31/pitfalls-to-installing-everything/#comment-483 Wed, 20 Sep 2006 23:32:44 +0000 http://www.mjmwired.net/linux/2005/10/31/pitfalls-to-installing-everything/#comment-483 Interesting appreciation. For newcomers iit will be profittable indicating, at the end of the point of viw how to '"install as needed"", particularly from disk 4. Interesting appreciation. For newcomers iit will be profittable indicating, at the end of the point of viw how to ‘”install as needed”", particularly from disk 4.

]]> Comment on Pitfalls to Installing Everything by: gritak http://www.mjmwired.net/linux/2005/10/31/pitfalls-to-installing-everything/#comment-482 Fri, 15 Sep 2006 11:24:57 +0000 http://www.mjmwired.net/linux/2005/10/31/pitfalls-to-installing-everything/#comment-482 When I used Fedora Core 4 previously, I simply installed everything. With Fedora Core 5, I took this advice and selected the server option, and didn't add anything else. Now when I want to install additional programs from the CD, I don't know how. Tried the Add/Remove Software item from the Gnome menu, but it insists on checking for dependencies, and downloading from the Internet. Adding two or tree packages can take 5 seconds. Or it could take up to 30 minutes or more. It's stupid because I have here, 3 CDs full of programs. If I want to try out 20 programs, I should be able to just install them from the CD, not wait for hours to download new copies from the Internet, when I already have them on the CD in front of me. When I used Fedora Core 4 previously, I simply installed everything. With Fedora Core 5, I took this advice and selected the server option, and didn’t add anything else. Now when I want to install additional programs from the CD, I don’t know how. Tried the Add/Remove Software item from the Gnome menu, but it insists on checking for dependencies, and downloading from the Internet. Adding two or tree packages can take 5 seconds. Or it could take up to 30 minutes or more. It’s stupid because I have here, 3 CDs full of programs. If I want to try out 20 programs, I should be able to just install them from the CD, not wait for hours to download new copies from the Internet, when I already have them on the CD in front of me.

]]> Comment on Pitfalls to Installing Everything by: Mongenix http://www.mjmwired.net/linux/2005/10/31/pitfalls-to-installing-everything/#comment-108 Sat, 25 Feb 2006 17:03:12 +0000 http://www.mjmwired.net/linux/2005/10/31/pitfalls-to-installing-everything/#comment-108 This is a good post and had to put in my 2 cents worth. I am a newb to Linux but not to Unix. No guru but I can get myself around. I do use vi, awk, sed and others. Linux reminds me of the old Windows 3.x and 95 days. To get a sound card to work, you had to work your _ss off learning how to do it with which autoexec and config.sys entries that are necessary. But once you learned the details such as IRQ’s, memory addresses and yes FLAGS, it was rather simple. (Just spent 3 days getting a wireless network card to work under Linux). Had to learn things like make, make install and what devel packages are. That being said, the one thing that I cannot replace with any other (useful) operating system is the ability to modify it and all related softare and packages to what I want it to do! With windows, I always feel at the mercy of Microsoft to tell me how my computer interface is going to look and how I am going to run my computer. This is not the case with Linux. Yes, the learning curve has been very steep and I still can’t see the top of the hill. Today's linux may or may not be the operating system of choice for the casual user, But, for the user who wants to take control of their system and experience a freedom not known to the Windows, Mac or SCO Unix world (unless you pay a lot of money) , it is the perfect choice. When I do see the top of the hill, I will get involved with the future development of linux. For now, still a lot to learn. PS. Wankbadger - I was going to write some cute stab at you and windows much like you did at linux but naaaaaa. If Linux is not for you .... it's not for you .... why bash it? Did you really say "works flawlessly every time"? This is a good post and had to put in my 2 cents worth.
I am a newb to Linux but not to Unix. No guru but I can get myself around. I do use vi, awk, sed and others.
Linux reminds me of the old Windows 3.x and 95 days. To get a sound card to work, you had to work your _ss off learning how to do it with which autoexec and config.sys entries that are necessary. But once you learned the details such as IRQ’s, memory addresses and yes FLAGS, it was rather simple. (Just spent 3 days getting a wireless network card to work under Linux). Had to learn things like make, make install and what devel packages are. That being said, the one thing that I cannot replace with any other (useful) operating system is the ability to modify it and all related softare and packages to what I want it to do!
With windows, I always feel at the mercy of Microsoft to tell me how my computer interface is going to look and how I am going to run my computer. This is not the case with Linux. Yes, the learning curve has been very steep and I still can’t see the top of the hill.
Today’s linux may or may not be the operating system of choice for the casual user, But, for the user who wants to take control of their system and experience a freedom not known to the Windows, Mac or SCO Unix world (unless you pay a lot of money) , it is the perfect choice.
When I do see the top of the hill, I will get involved with the future development of linux. For now, still a lot to learn.

PS. Wankbadger - I was going to write some cute stab at you and windows much like you did at linux but naaaaaa. If Linux is not for you …. it’s not for you …. why bash it?
Did you really say “works flawlessly every time”?

]]> Comment on Pitfalls to Installing Everything by: Mauriat http://www.mjmwired.net/linux/2005/10/31/pitfalls-to-installing-everything/#comment-100 Mon, 20 Feb 2006 23:33:51 +0000 http://www.mjmwired.net/linux/2005/10/31/pitfalls-to-installing-everything/#comment-100 wankbadger: Ease of use really has nothing to do with package selection. If you are not willing to learn Linux (and I know it is a steep learning curve), then you really cannot use it. As it currently stands, you can do virtually everything from a GUI, command line is necessary in a few places, but pretty much you no longer have many commands to learn. I guess, if you can't learn, then there's nothing you can do. I can't say I want to live in France, but I don't want to learn any French. wankbadger: Ease of use really has nothing to do with package selection. If you are not willing to learn Linux (and I know it is a steep learning curve), then you really cannot use it. As it currently stands, you can do virtually everything from a GUI, command line is necessary in a few places, but pretty much you no longer have many commands to learn.

I guess, if you can’t learn, then there’s nothing you can do. I can’t say I want to live in France, but I don’t want to learn any French.

]]> Comment on Pitfalls to Installing Everything by: wankbadger http://www.mjmwired.net/linux/2005/10/31/pitfalls-to-installing-everything/#comment-99 Mon, 20 Feb 2006 22:42:21 +0000 http://www.mjmwired.net/linux/2005/10/31/pitfalls-to-installing-everything/#comment-99 The trouble though is that every time I as a newbie install Linux, something breaks and I end up back in Windows because it works flawlessly every time. A full install could save me these headaches. Remember, things you old pros take for granted are like greek for us noobs. You can't just say "go download the dependencies" if I don't even know the difference between rpm and tar. Then if I get a tar archive, I have no idea what to do with it. See? And the asinine strings of commands and flags which must be typed constantly, noobs actually have to save these in text files because they are not yet memorized and intuitive. Remember the funny old picture from the Win95 days with the alert box which said "It appears you have moved your mouse. You must restart Windows for your changes to be applied."? Well, funny as it was, it's no longer the case. XP Pro is fast, stable and reliable. But with Linux, every time I turn around I may not have to reboot, but I sure have to type a lot of garbage into a shell. Think about it. PS, does anyone know how to get sound to work in Core 4 under the KDE desktop? No? I didn't think so, lol! The trouble though is that every time I as a newbie install Linux, something breaks and I end up back in Windows because it works flawlessly every time. A full install could save me these headaches. Remember, things you old pros take for granted are like greek for us noobs. You can’t just say “go download the dependencies” if I don’t even know the difference between rpm and tar. Then if I get a tar archive, I have no idea what to do with it. See? And the asinine strings of commands and flags which must be typed constantly, noobs actually have to save these in text files because they are not yet memorized and intuitive.

Remember the funny old picture from the Win95 days with the alert box which said “It appears you have moved your mouse. You must restart Windows for your changes to be applied.”? Well, funny as it was, it’s no longer the case. XP Pro is fast, stable and reliable. But with Linux, every time I turn around I may not have to reboot, but I sure have to type a lot of garbage into a shell.

Think about it.

PS, does anyone know how to get sound to work in Core 4 under the KDE desktop? No? I didn’t think so, lol!

]]> Comment on Pitfalls to Installing Everything by: Mauriat http://www.mjmwired.net/linux/2005/10/31/pitfalls-to-installing-everything/#comment-98 Sat, 18 Feb 2006 16:41:17 +0000 http://www.mjmwired.net/linux/2005/10/31/pitfalls-to-installing-everything/#comment-98 Anoop: Fedora will not have everything you need anyways (multimedia, etc). So if you plan to update and install missing applications, I don't see the problem in a few extra post-install steps. ... If you really think that things like samba-swat are really necessary, please do get involved in the Fedora project and let someone know that these changes are necessary. Community involvement is the only way to improve Linux. Anoop: Fedora will not have everything you need anyways (multimedia, etc). So if you plan to update and install missing applications, I don’t see the problem in a few extra post-install steps. … If you really think that things like samba-swat are really necessary, please do get involved in the Fedora project and let someone know that these changes are necessary. Community involvement is the only way to improve Linux.

]]> Comment on Pitfalls to Installing Everything by: Anoop http://www.mjmwired.net/linux/2005/10/31/pitfalls-to-installing-everything/#comment-96 Sat, 18 Feb 2006 16:08:38 +0000 http://www.mjmwired.net/linux/2005/10/31/pitfalls-to-installing-everything/#comment-96 The problem is fedora releases till core-4 did not install what you want but installed some one else´s choices for you. The full install is the only way to get some useful software like samba-swat, which fedora thinks is not necessary , but Which I find very much needed, What is needed is that after install there should be some program (yum works well) which can remove what you dont want (Wish for a GUI here), The old redhat 7´s had a choser, even mandriva and suse still have them , But Ubuntu(well I wont use it anyway , I still like my ISA hardware) and Fedora seem to be doing things for you . The problem is fedora releases till core-4 did not install what you want but installed some one else´s choices for you. The full install is the only way to get some useful software like samba-swat, which fedora thinks is not necessary , but Which I find very much needed,

What is needed is that after install there should be some program (yum works well) which can remove what you dont want (Wish for a GUI here), The old redhat 7´s had a choser, even mandriva and suse still have them , But Ubuntu(well I wont use it anyway , I still like my ISA hardware) and Fedora seem to be doing things for you .

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